All right, well disregard everything I’ve said the past couple of days. I’ve now got milky oil and am right back where I started this whole mess months ago.
I’m thinking that white smoke coming out of the blowback tube is a big clue, but I’ve no real idea what the problem is. We changed the head gasket, had all the exchangers tested, had the head checked out for cracks, changed all the small gaskets on the exhaust header, etc.. I can’t think of a thing that didn’t get checked out. Even if it hadn’t been the head gasket after all you would think we would have discovered the problem at some point along the way.
Feeling pretty dejected at this point. Boats sometimes tend to feel like a lot more trouble than they’re worth.
And before people start asking why I didn’t turn right around and have Omar the mechanic keep working until he fixed it, well, the answer is simply that I didn’t want to be away from my family any longer. I’m anxious to get back to them, and the thought of spending hundreds of dollars more to sit in buses at thirteen hours a crack didn’t hold much appeal. The weather looked good for sailing south—and it has been. In Mazatlan I can get some new eyes on this thing, and with the boat down there I can at least continue working on other projects as well as the engine. I really wish I would have gotten this kind of weather the first time I tried to sail down so I could have been doing this all summer long instead of right at the crack of high season.
I left Thursday around eight. It’s now eight on Sunday. Eighty miles to go, wind six knots from behind, swell two feet from behind, speed 4.5 knots.
No chance I’m making it in tonight, which will be the fourth of this 380 mile trip. At this rate I’ll probably have to anchor out for a few hours to wait for high tide early in the morning as well. Though it’s far too early to start making those predictions.
Funny, for a brief moment before I left I thought there might be a chance of making it in just two nights. Winds were supposed to be fairly strong at 15-20 knots which combined with the swell would have easily propelled me along at over seven knots. But high speed passages have always been a pipe dream—monohull or catamaran doesn’t matter, they never happen.
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Tough not having e-mail out here and not being able to talk to Ali about any of this. You tend to hear the same conversations play out over and over again when you’ve got nobody else to talk to.
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Nine o’clock and my eyes are aching to close, but I can’t let them. Fifteen miles from Mazatlan, if I fell asleep and didn’t wake up for the alarm (which happens at least once a night) the next thing I’d be waking up to is the boat crashing up on the rocks. Need to get in and anchor behind a small island for a few hours of sleep while I wait for high tide and first light to make my way in through the breakwater to the marina. One thing I don’t like about Mazatlan is their breakwater. It’s super shallow, always has breaking waves, and is a dogleg—a trifecta for sweaty palms.
56 Comments on “Confusion”
Did yall check the compression, and leakdown on the cylinders?
If the head isn’t cracked, and isn’t warped, almost nil chance of that unless aluminum, then there is a possibility that there could be a hairline crack in a cylinder wall.
Having just gone through a few months of trying to correct an engine problem (generator, but a diesel engine all the same) you have nothing but my utmost sympathy. Diesel engines- like boats, are stupid. Lots and lots of sympathy for you.
I can’t believe that little tikes coupe is still standing after all these years in the sun….
I love that thing. I can’t help but smile when I see the underway pictures with that little car lashed to the deck.
That thing is like a case study to show how we are all destroying our planet with plastics. I mean hell, that thing will still be usable in a hundred years. 🙂
At this point it feels like you’ve got a lot “invested” in this engine, but maybe you can find a good used one. I got a used 4.108 for $800.00 in Alameda, then I resealed it and replaced all the normal wear parts and sent out the FI pump and injectors to be rebuilt. Now I have less than 2K in it and it always runs well. Transportation from the US would be a hassle and you’d need to change your TIP. Pedro (new contractor) at the boatyard in La Cruz also has a delivery business from San Diego and Arizona to La Cruz and I think he stops in Mazatlan too. He’s a straight up guy.
Some of the 4.108’s had cylinder liners, not many of them, but if yours is one of them a liner could have slipped or the O ring may have failed. Unlikely but possible.
I’ll chime in on the engine problem too. As other have said the white goo means you are getting coolant into the cylinders. Period. I assume your water heater loop runs through the heat exchanger, not the engine block. Coolant can not get into the cylinders from a bad heat exchanger. On a diesel engine coolant can only get into the cylinders through a leaky head gasket (due to a bad gasket, bad installation, or warped head or block), a cracked head, a cracked block, or a bad exhaust manifold, riser or gasket. The simplest is a leaky head. Did you try putting a wrench on the head bolts to see if they seem tight? You didn’t mention trying this. Don’t worry about the torque specs, just see if they all seem equally tight and secure. These bolts often loosen during the initial hours of running with a new gasket. Considering all the work you had done on the engine the simplest explanation is that your head bolts are loosening. Let us know if you checked this. If you wait too long to tighten the bolts the head gasket will be blown out.
Pat,
I’ll speak from my heart:
I have 3 kids 5 years old more than yours, a boat and I’m working with diesel engines for 16 years now.
you can’t afford spend your time on that engine in exchange of time with your kids.
You allways can learn /fix engines but the time you are not with your kids you will never get it back. They will grow faster than you think.
A diesel engine is an assembly of systems, so when it starts to fail, you will fix one system, then other will fail just after that and so on. If you can not/is not willing to get a new one, get your current and exchange for a refurbished one from a company you trust.
The worst about engines is that they tend to fail when you need them most. It’s exactly when you will be negotiating a tight entrance with cross wind and current that the engine will be most required and will fail.
R
If
Ricardo…I must strongly disagree with your statement about the need to replace the engine. I have the same engine in my boat and it has been rebuilt 2 times and is 30 years old. It took us across the Pacific and is still running strong with proper maintainance. These Ford Lehmans will run forever and require very little work to keep them running. The systems on the engine are the simplest and most reliable in the industry.
But you did rebuild it 2 times, right?
My point on change it for a REBUILT one (same model) was that it will be faster than to take the one Pat has, send it to a shop and wait for it to be rebuilt.
Also, people talk about buying and installing a rebuilt engine as if it is the same thing as replacing the batteries in a flashlight. Try to keep in mind that I don’t even live in the country that this rebuilt engine would come from. Shipping a 900 pound engine across borders is an extremely expensive and time consuming activity. Everyone is acting as if spending twenty or thirty hours working on the current engine in an effort to try and find the problem and fix it is a stupid waste of time. Why would anyone replace an engine without at the very least KNOWING what is wrong with the current engine?
Pat,
I know it’s not an easy/fast and cheap thing to change the motor, and also I agree with you that find a problem and fix it is not a stupd waste of time.
My point is that the different systems that compose the engine have different life span and you may be trading a one time effort for several unexpected forced fixes.
today is something related to water on oil, tomorrow will be with compression, the week after will be with cooling, the week after will be with the injectors, the week after with the fuel pump and then exhaust, and then valves and so on and so on, maybe not weekly but you got the picture.
I’m not criticizing your quest to find the problem,just highlighting what may happen based on my experience with 30 year old diesel engines that I had to fix.
I had two…
Just my 2 cents.
God Bless you,
R
Ricardo, I’m pretty sure my kids aren’t lacking for time with their father. Not to be rude about it, but I’ve never in my life met a father that spends more time with his kids than I do. Like literally never.
And no, I’m not ever getting a new engine for this old boat. I would auction the boat off for whatever the highest bidder would pay before I would do that.
Exactlity Pat.
My comment comes from my perception that what is most valuable in the life that you are being able to have is the time with the kids and your wife, not the boat.
That is valuable to them (the kids) but, my opinion, way more valuable to you!
The boat is the cherry on the cake. . . .
But this is my view and there are those that don’t agree.
R
I don’t understand if you are implying that I don’t agree with that, or what? I’ve designed my entire adult life around being able to spend these formative years with my kids instead of off at work ten hours a day. And any time that I spend on our boat is not frivolity, it is our home. It’s not a toy that we go and spend one weekend a month on and can throw unlimited amounts of money on because we spend the rest of our time at work. Anyway, you’re preaching to the choir here.
Wow! Excellent reader feedback on this engine fiasco. Kudos to you all.
Brian,
Have you tried re-torquing the head gasket? How about the exhaust manifold? Engines have moving parts, and things with moving parts tend to wear over time. Also, a diesel engine is a big pump, and big pumps produce pressure. Pressure can be your friend and your enemy. Diesel engines are mean. You do not want something mean and full of pressure–then you have a mean enemy or a mean friend. See, there is no difference between the two? How about the plugs? did you check the plugs?
Kevin
Diesel engines don’t have plugs.
head gasket..retorque first step…and yes this sucks big time!!!!!
Can you change the oil at sea, then motor past the breakwater and dogleg.
You have my sympathy. Just to let you know that some engines are almost IMPOSSIBLE to fix. I bought a used tractor, cheap, because it was going PISST, PISST, PISST, when it was running. No problem, just a burnt valve, right? You can seal up a diesel engine right? We replaced: the head with new valves, the cylinder sleeves, pistons with new rings, and injectors. I had 4 truck motor mechanics look at the motor, no one had an answer. I took it back to the same sale, still going PISST, PISST.
I had a similar issue on my VW Diesel van. I replaced the head gasket because it was mixing coolant into the oil. A lot of time, money, and frustration later I still had the same problem. There was a coolant to engine oil cooler that had ruptured. Your engine seems to have a similar cooler for the engine and transmission oil that would be worth looking at prior to removing the head again.
Pat,
Is the oil cooler cooled by raw(sea) water or coolant? If it’s coolant, a failed oil cooler could explain the coolant getting in the oil.
Eric
We had it cleaned and tested while we were doing all that other work. Checked out fine. Of course that doesn’t completely rule it out, but I’m focusing on other things for now.
Oil coolers are typcially on the sea water side of the cooling system. A failed oil cooler would let sea water mix with the oil. Pat is loosing antifreeze. It’s not the oil cooler.
Fresh Eyes is the answer.. Feeling for ya Bro.. Im sitting in a marina right now with charging issues.. circuit board crap not working.. hate marinas, but so is life.. and BOATS!!! ha
When I got my first boat just a couple years ago. n BVI’s. it had a coolant issue.. overheating.. sails up.. dingy strapped to the side for power into the anchorage.
Here’s the cool part.. rather than getting very upset or bummed out.. I thought of you.. you never seem to have a worry..and have certainly had many issues as will everyone!
Jumped in a bus the next morning with my daughter, broken parts in hard…and said.. were on an adventure!.. made a negative a positive and only because of your years of dealing with them…
You will figure it out..
Thanks Bro!
Chin UP!!!
Thanks man, that’s nice to hear. We’ll sort this out and move on just like we always do.
The white smoke in the blow by tube is likely because of water in the oil. The water is steaming off as the engine runs.
As for the cause. I’d look seriously at the raw water pump. Usually there are two seals. Generally there is no or very little water between both seals in the “dead space”. If more water is getting in there than the weep hole can allow to drain it will be forced past the seal on the engine side. As this happens the seal weakens and more and more gets by…that water goes directly into the base pan and ….water in oil.
Not always this scenario but I’ve found one problem this year on a westerbeke and two gas atomic 4’s. Doesn’t happen allot but you have to know it can.
Mo
The raw water pump is designed such that if the seal fails, the water will not enter the engine…it will drip from the opening at the bottom of the shaft bearing.
This advice from Mo on Odyssey saved my butt this summer when the inner seal went on my water pump. Over six years dust had filled the pump’s weep holes. When the outer seal failed the dust turned to mud, blocking the weep holes. Without any sign of a weep hole leak, the inner seal finally failed and my oil went milky. I repaired the pump, did five oil changes, and carried on cruising.
I replaced the old style water pump a year or two ago with a brand new one piece design that cuts out the oil completely. That pump is not the problem.
As with the oil cooler suggestion, the raw water pump pumps sea water. Pat is loosing antfreeze. It’s not he raw water pump.
You poor unfortunate bastard. But you’re a smart man. You WILL figure it out. Good luck.
The best picture is the kids foot car on deck, this one always makes me smile when i see it.
Me too. It will be a sad day when the kids outgrow that thing.
Just have another kid! 🙂
Is the raw water pump driven by a shaft attached to the crankshaft? (Like on a Westerbeke W33). Had water in the oil leaking through a failed o-ring on the water pump once or twice…
Hi Pat and Ali, I’ve been going through the process of choosing what type of boat to go for. After months of research I find myself coming to the same or similar path as you. Although I like the cats, the cost makes them a too distant reality. The mono’s are, as you say, “submarines”. Now I’m looking at pilot houses. I remember reading your process many months ago, but now I understand!
Whatever i end up with, I’m going to sink $20K into the best engine possible so I don’t live this nightmare you’re going through. Sink that engine! Drop it over the rail forever.
I really don’t get it when people make this out to be such a catastrophic event. It sucks, yeah, but this is boat life. These things happen all the time. Our first boat was two years old when the engine overheated badly for some unknown reason and cracked the head. We needed an entirely new engine. I also had to replace some vibration dampener a bunch of times which required completely taking the engine apart each time. All these people who are so sure that a new engine will solve all their woes are seriously deluding themselves. It’s a boat, no matter what you do there are going to be problems. If you ask me this boat hasn’t had nearly as many as it probably should have for sitting unused for twelve years.
I agree. This ranks up there somewhere with a furnace breaking for a homeowner. A hassle, but just a routine part of home ownership. New engines often have as many problems as old engines. And where would you get warranty work done? New engines also have a lot of electronics that require trained technicians and special equipment to troubleshoot. No more Omars working with simple tools. For a cruising engine, simplicity is the greatest virtue. New engines are not simple. Is a mechanic on Fiji going to have the latest Volvo engine diagostic software to tell you that your shaft rotation sensor is giving erratic readings? Of course not. Unless the block is cracked stick with your plan and fix the old one. First step is to check to torque on the head bolts. Second step is a compression test.
Third step is check the plugs…duh!
Edan has no idea what he is talking about. Your boat and your engine will take you around the world more reliably than anything being built these days.
Some day in the far off future you will pull the engine out of the boat and completely rebuild it. When you do that, you will realize the beauty in the simplicity of the Ford Lehman engine. There are so few parts it is hard to believe that it actually works.
Mazatlan has some excellent Lehman mechanics who work on the fishing fleet. You may want to veture down to the fishing fleet on the far side of town and see what you can find rather than pay the marina prices for a mechanic.
good advice.
Hi Pat~boo on the engine trouble, but cool that you’re back on the water 🙂 I have a silly question, how did you get that great shot of the bow of the boat under way? I would say you were in the dingy but it was just you aboard, so i don’t think that was it…hummm? So,how did you get that shot:)?
Cheers!
check out his 10/10/2012
For those I use a GoPro with the mount screwed into the end of a boat hook. I set the camera to take a picture every X seconds, then extend the boat hook out there and get the shot.
Heat exchanger defect. I go with that. Makes all the sense in the world. I own a Yanmar, and the engine manual shows these things have a definite useful life before the core (tube assembly) needs replacing. I would be willing to bet yurs has never been replace (WAY past due). As I recall, my spare cost several hunderd dollars. Having worked on this assembly when hunting down an overheating problem some time ago, I learned it is not a difficult process to open the unit and replace these tubes. You need to remember if you do this, however, that all seals need to be replaced.
It’s not the heat exchanger. The symptoms are: loss of coolant AND coolant in the compustion side of the engine. A bad heat exchanger core could explain the loss of antifreeze, but not the white goop or milky oil. There is a failure in some part that separates the the coolant flow (antifreeze loop) from the combustion side of the engine. It is NOT related to a part that separates the raw water flow from the coolant flow, such as a heat exchanger, oil cooler, transmission cooler. It’s most likely a bad installation job on the new head gasket, happens all the time. Or the bolts simply loosened.
I have been reading the Bums from the start. Pat has a process. This will be taken care of in it’s own sweet time. Not the end of the world. And Pat, I hate to tell you but I got one of those little cars for my kids about 1984. It is still in use by the grandkids. My daughter painted it turquoise with house paint about 1990. Still rolling down the River…well, I mean the driveway.
Have also followed you guys from the start. No advice from me…looks like you got enough as it is. Good luck with your next challenge and enjoy what you got while you got it. Having engine problems on your boat while living in Mexico with your beautiful wife and spending everyday with your kids still beats sitting in an office staring at a computer 50+ hours a week (or so I’ve heard). Wishing you guys the best and thanks for the blog!
Sorry to hear about the engine problem. I’ll leave it to the armchair experts to render advice on what went wrong and what to do about it. Our friends aboard Sirena have been cruising in MX for the last three years and had similar problems with their engine which I believe is the same as yours. After considering their options they went for the full Monty and had it replaced in La Paz earlier this year. They are probably in La Cruz by now, getting ready to enjoy another fabulous Mexican winter. Ed and Connie are great folks and I think it would be worth your while to have a chat with them if you’re considering getting rid of your old engine, so I’ve included a link to their blog.
sailblogs.com/member/sirena1
BTW, We’ll send a pic of La Lisa in her new Bumfuzzle t-shirt soon!
Hi Pat. You have a lot of folks commenting more qualified than me, but I would consider that you have two problems. Perhaps the coolant is escaping out the exhaust or the water heater and perhaps the oil finally turned milky from a pin hole leak in the oil cooler that wasn’t detected. Our oil cooler is just a relatively thin copper tube the spirals through a housing. Best wishes and look forward to the day when this is behind you. You may get some good info from the folks at Total Yacht Works, or others in Mazatlan. Hello to Ali.
I’m loving the triumphs and the tribulations. Keep it coming!
Paul
I agree with using a fishing fleet mechanic. Hang in there. I know you guys can handle this. Know you are not alone. There have been days we would have accepted $1.00 for our boat. Hello to Ali and the kids.
Well done Pat
You handled the trip and the problems in a seamanlike manner. And now Bumfuzzle is close enough to address the problem without the added stress and expense of bus travel. Two thumbs up!